Bunnymen songwriting process

[black francis]

I had always assumed that the first four-five albums the band would jam together and create their songs that way with Mac writing the lyrics then it going to after the reformation Mac bringing in songs and Les (On Evergreen) and Will added their own bits to it but they're essentially Mac's songs. But the interviews he's been giving lately makes it seem it's been this way the whole time. Then Mac's comment about just because someone's name is in the songwriting credits doesn't mean they took part in writing the song (I'm paraphrasing obviously) really mad me question some long held beliefs of mine. What do you guys think?

Frank you see anything that might shed some light?

[DivaDiana77]

I hate Mac for saying that. Yes, a song CAN be just the melody and the chords if you are someone who performs that way (James Taylor, John Denver), but when someone writes a melody in the bridge or the opening or contributes a countermelody on their instrument, the song changes through that process and sometimes the countermelody alters the chord. Happened quite a bit in Bunnymen songs.

I think the real people to talk to would be Will and Les. When Les was interviewed for incendiary, he said different things about the process. Also, it depended on the song, right?

Fucking Mac.

[Mr. Brian]

I think there are songs that Mac wrote that were brought in and then the band added their respective parts but there are definitely a lot of songs that seem to be centered around a riff, drum or bass line. It seems that there was a gradual shift beginning around Ocean Rain but I would guess that the majority of Porcupine and HUH were collaborative as the band gelled and hit their stride musically. A lot of those songs can’t really be played with just a guitar and vocal and sound right.

I thought Les confirmed that a big reason, aside from the family issues, of why he left in ’98 was that Mac would just come in and say “these are the songs, they are finished now fill in your parts” which was different from how they used to do things. This also meant that he didn’t get publishing rights and percentages and in effect was getting paid less than the drummer and keyboard players that got paid scale as hired guns. Something like that anyway.

[In The Margins]

But the interviews he's been giving lately makes it seem it's been this way the whole time. Then Mac's comment about just because someone's name is in the songwriting credits doesn't mean they took part in writing the song (I'm paraphrasing obviously) really mad me question some long held beliefs of mine. What do you guys think?

I think these "revelations" may be coming about as part of the process of him writing his so-called memoirs. It was fresh on his mind after recently exploring the topic for the book and now he has to tell the world. Our gain.

If he wrote all the songs, only his name should appear. Since other names appear, then shut up about it.

Also, how insulting it must be to Will to have those random guys get co-songwriting and producing credit on The Fountain. Maybe they took that route instead of paying them upfront.

[Mr. Brian]

I think these "revelations" may be coming about as part of the process of him writing his so-called memoirs. It was fresh on his mind after recently exploring the topic for the book and now he has to tell the world. Our gain.

If he wrote all the songs, only his name should appear. Since other names appear, then shut up about it.

Also, how insulting it must be to Will to have those random guys get co-songwriting and producing credit on The Fountain. Maybe they took that route instead of paying them upfront.

Just to play devils advocate here...sometimes there is just an agreement early on in a band to equally share the credits . Then over time this changes as the band becomes more successful and the process changes. In the case of Lennon/McCartney, this was the case but typically whoever sang the song was the main songwriter and the other had a minor role. By the time the Beatles had ended there was virtually no input from the other on their songs attributed to Lennon/McCartney. In fact in some cases, Lennon for example, didn't even play a note on a McCartney written Lennon/McCartney tune.

[black francis]

Same with the Ramones. Their first few albums were credited to all of them but as jealousy and rivalries came up Joey decided he wanted the songwriting credits to be listed separately. No more spirit of "brotherhood" in the band. Probably started when Johnny "stole" Joey's girl.

[In The Margins]

Just to play devils advocate here...sometimes there is just an agreement early on in a band to equally share the credits . Then over time this changes as the band becomes more successful and the process changes. In the case of Lennon/McCartney, this was the case but typically whoever sang the song was the main songwriter and the other had a minor role. By the time the Beatles had ended there was virtually no input from the other on their songs attributed to Lennon/McCartney. In fact in some cases, Lennon for example, didn't even play a note on a McCartney written Lennon/McCartney tune.

Do you think EATB modeled their songwriting credits after The Beatles? I do.

Regardless of who "wrote" the songs, it stinks to come out 30 years later and say, Hey! I wrote them all. The other guys only got their names on the credits because I was so generous. That's essentially what he's saying.

Also, does anybody outside of this forum even really care? I don't think it will make headlines to learn that Les didn't really have a role in writing In Bluer Skies. However, Ian's gone on record in the past as saying that Will came up with an integral part of The Killing Moon. To retract that statement now is bush league.

[JackT]

Do you think EATB modeled their songwriting credits after The Beatles? I do.

Regardless of who "wrote" the songs, it stinks to come out 30 years later and say, Hey! I wrote them all. The other guys only got their names on the credits because I was so generous. That's essentially what he's saying.

Also, does anybody outside of this forum even really care? I don't think it will make headlines to learn that Les didn't really have a role in writing In Bluer Skies. However, Ian's gone on record in the past as saying that Will came up with an integral part of The Killing Moon. To retract that statement now is bush league.

Word.

[Mr. Brian]

Do you think EATB modeled their songwriting credits after The Beatles? I do.

Regardless of who "wrote" the songs, it stinks to come out 30 years later and say, Hey! I wrote them all. The other guys only got their names on the credits because I was so generous. That's essentially what he's saying.

While most Beatles fans know what the "deal" was I do encounter people who think Lennon and McCartney were just sitting in a room across from each other for years and years knocking out songs half and half as a duo.

A few years ago McCartney wanted his songs at least attributed to McCartney/Lennon instead but I think Yoko said no way.

[JackT]

While most Beatles fans know what the "deal" was I do encounter people who think Lennon and McCartney were just sitting in a room across from each other for years and years knocking out songs half and half as a duo.

A few years ago McCartney wanted his songs at least attributed to McCartney/Lennon instead but I think Yoko said no way.

I feel bad for Harrison. Imagine you're George Harrison and you're still only the 3rd best songwriter in the band.

[In The Margins]

I feel bad for Harrison. Imagine you're George Harrison and you're still only the 3rd best songwriter in the band.

But at least you're better than Ringo. That's some consolation.

[Mr.Sparkle]

I really think Ian has been getting more senile and delusional as the years go by and that #1 song still isn't there.

I would agree that around the OR period the songwriting process started to change. I believe it when Ian says he wrote The Killing Moon. Ian also said that Seven Seas was basically written by Will, etc.

What I always found interesting is in the credits to the first 3 albums (maybe OR, too) Will's name is always listed first in the songwriting credits - "All songs written by Sergeant/McCulloch/Pattinson/De Freitas".

it's a pretty well known fact that HUH and Porcupine were both created by the whole band jamming and coming up with parts to songs, regardless of what Ian says now. I simply don't believe him.

[DivaDiana77]

I think there are songs that Mac wrote that were brought in and then the band added their respective parts but there are definitely a lot of songs that seem to be centered around a riff, drum or bass line. It seems that there was a gradual shift beginning around Ocean Rain but I would guess that the majority of Porcupine and HUH were collaborative as the band gelled and hit their stride musically. A lot of those songs can’t really be played with just a guitar and vocal and sound right.

Agreed. And especially when Mac would just add a rhythm riff while the rest of the band was playing melody around that. Zimbo is so obviously centered around Pete playing doomy drums. And Pete was clearly contributing to that marimba percussion on Porcupine and on Never Stop--and there were many things he did on Ocean Rain with percussion effects that would not have been present without him.

I thought Les confirmed that a big reason, aside from the family issues, of why he left in ’98 was that Mac would just come in and say “these are the songs, they are finished now fill in your parts” which was different from how they used to do things. This also meant that he didn’t get publishing rights and percentages and in effect was getting paid less than the drummer and keyboard players that got paid scale as hired guns. Something like that anyway.

There was something in that interview about him still getting 3rds, but he just didn't want to do it the way that Mac was doing it. There's a demo version of the Game where Les plays a significant countermelody. I read somewhere that he had piano lessons as a kid and you can hear that he writes some great melodic riffs. He was an integral part of creating that atmospheric sound some of us love so well.

And Will should be knighted.

[Mr. Brian]

I read somewhere when I was drinking that someone else read that Mac said that Les was never actually in the Bunnymen and therefore may not even exist at all.

[DivaDiana77]

I read somewhere when I was drinking that someone else read that Mac said that Les was never actually in the Bunnymen and therefore may not even exist at all.

Are you sure it wasn't LSD or shrooms?

I can say where I read it but I thought it was boring to do that since VT isn't supposed to be like academic research and drinking sounds like so much more fun when you put it that way, Mr. Brian.

I promise to give proper MLA format next time for Liverpool Explodes and Incendiary Magazine.