Roger Clemens

[moondance]

Did he or didn't he? Any opinions?
Roger has had an amazing career. I've always liked him. A few things that bother me about this is, isn't the trainer paid by the Yankees? Why aren't they being implicated in this? Wasn't Roger drug tested regularly? If he did use steroids or human growth hormones, how was it possible for the tests to come up negative?

[JackT]

I don't know if he did or didn't, but I always suspected, just like a lot of other people, I guess. The ability to be a dominant pitcher at such an advanced age is pretty unusual.

When i heard Andy Pettite was accused also, my first thought was he must not have been taking them correctly.

[black francis]

It's extremely likely that Clemens did take steroids as pitchers obtain more benefits than hitters do. Reduces recovery time and increases velocity. And like Jack said for hitters and pitchers to be having record years in what should be the twilights of their careers is a bit suspicious. And how else to these players explain their heads expanding to O.J. Simpson proportions?

Who I don't believe took banned substances was that Tour De France guy (Landis?) who was stipped of his title.

[moondance]

This has been bothering me for a week now. I know for one that the Yankees put alot of pressure on their well-paid but pretty minimal pitching staff. They just didn't have enough quality men on board this year. Every time one of their players goes on the disabled list, the team owners freak out. There seems to be massive pressure to get these guys back into rotation. I think its a very pervasive practise in baseball and probably American football as well because those guys are huge! I just hope if they're going to bring down individual players and ruin their reputations, that some of the bosses should have to pay the price too if they were encouraging it.
It bothers me that it was the team trainer who supposedly administered these steroids and HGH. How could he do that without team knowledge and culpability?

[black francis]

Because I harbor sexist opinions and am an all around bad person...

I never saw you as a baseball fan that would be so bothered by the steroid scandal.

Sorry!

It is kind of disappointing how everyone (myself included) turned a blind eye to the obvious fact that players were using something a little stronger than Ben-Gay. I mean Jesus Christ none of us ever stopped to ask where the fuck McGwire and Sosa got their overnight muscles, big heads and shrunken testicles? But the league and the owners were totally complicit and probably encouraged it. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[JackT]

Because I harbor sexist opinions and am an all around bad person...

I never saw you as a baseball fan that would be so bothered by the steroid scandal.

Sorry!

It is kind of disappointing how everyone (myself included) turned a blind eye to the obvious fact that players were using something a little stronger than Ben-Gay. I mean Jesus Christ none of us ever stopped to ask where the fuck McGwire and Sosa got their overnight muscles, big heads and shrunken testicles? But the league and the owners were totally complicit and probably encouraged it. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

What planet were you on? EVERYONE was talking steroids when McGwire was chasing that record. Same with Sosa. I booed when he hit that home run.

[Fish Hook Girl]

There seems to be massive pressure to get these guys back into rotation.

Moondance, you're confusing steroids with human growth hormone (HGH). HGH is what will heal an athlete quickly so they can play again. Right now, there's practically no test for HGH in professional sports and they only way they find out if a player is on HGH is to find the paper trail that he bought the stuff.

Now, regarding steroids, the players do steroids in order to perform better, get better stats and eventually get the gigantic salaries. In baseball, it's all about the stats and the salary because the salary is guaranteed. And every baseball player is supposedly working toward getting into Cooperstown.

Now, as for Roger. I'm not ready to crucify him. I need more evidence than one snitch to convince me that he was on steroids. Also, if he was doing them, then the guys he pitched to were all doing steroids too. He's going to be on 60 Minutes in January to give his side of the story.

The people I do blame for this whole thing are the players, the owners and the fans. If the fans weren't willing to pay hundreds for a seat and demand homeruns and amazing stats, then maybe the owners wouldn't pay out the salaries and look the other way when it's obvious something's not right and then the players might not be pressured into this shit.

[Fish Hook Girl]

What planet were you on? EVERYONE was talking steroids when McGwire was chasing that record. Same with Sosa. I booed when he hit that home run.

Oh yes, everyone knew steroids were involved. And then years later McGwire gets up in front of Congress and says, I'm not here to talk about the past! Priceless! And then Palmiero did his emphatic pointing with the I never took steroids comment. Another roll on the floor laughing moment! And then there's Sosa pretending he can't speak English. Must see TV.

[black francis]

What planet were you on? EVERYONE was talking steroids when McGwire was chasing that record. Same with Sosa. I booed when he hit that home run.

Do you have proof of that you booed at that precise moment Mr. Jack "I was the lone crusader against the evils of steroids back during the home run record chase of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and not just reinventing history for my own selfish reasons" T?

All I heard was "this is great for baseball, America and the hungry children of the world"

[JackT]

Moondance, you're confusing steroids with human growth hormone (HGH). HGH is what will heal an athlete quickly so they can play again. Right now, there's practically no test for HGH in professional sports and they only way they find out if a player is on HGH is to find the paper trail that he bought the stuff.

Now, regarding steroids, the players do steroids in order to perform better, get better stats and eventually get the gigantic salaries. In baseball, it's all about the stats and the salary because the salary is guaranteed. And every baseball player is supposedly working toward getting into Cooperstown.

Now, as for Roger. I'm not ready to crucify him. I need more evidence than one snitch to convince me that he was on steroids. Also, if he was doing them, then the guys he pitched to were all doing steroids too. He's going to be on 60 Minutes in January to give his side of the story.

The people I do blame for this whole thing are the players, the owners and the fans. If the fans weren't willing to pay hundreds for a seat and demand homeruns and amazing stats, then maybe the owners wouldn't pay out the salaries and look the other way when it's obvious something's not right and then the players might not be pressured into this shit.

Not sure if your characterization of the uses of HGH vs. steriods is completely accurate. If I'm not mistaken, steriods decrease inflammation and decrease recovery time, both potentially of huge benefit to a pitcher. (If I recall correctly, hydro cortisone is a steroid!) My point is, steroids do a lot more than build unnatural amounts of muscle, and are normally not used for that purpose. (Bodybuilding doses are gigantic compared to the normal therapeutic doses, if I understand correctly.)

[Fish Hook Girl]

Not sure if your characterization of the uses of HGH vs. steriods is completely accurate. If I'm not mistaken, steriods decrease inflammation and decrease recovery time, both potentially of huge benefit to a pitcher. (If I recall correctly, hydro cortisone is a steroid!) My point is, steroids do a lot more than build unnatural amounts of muscle, and are normally not used for that purpose. (Bodybuilding doses are gigantic compared to the normal therapeutic doses, if I understand correctly.)

It's my understanding is that basically steroids build muscle while HGH speeds recovery time. Without doing more research, I couldn't debate your point that steroids reduce inflammation and decrease recovery time. But it makes sense.

[moondance]

Moondance, you're confusing steroids with human growth hormone (HGH).

I'm not confusing them. I know that they are 2 different things. Andy Petitte admitting taking HGH twice to aid in recovery from injury. Not to artificially enhance his muscles.

I might be combining the two problems regarding recovery from injury and also the demand by the owners that their highly paid dream teams win. I think that in the recent Joe Torre dismissal, it was cited by one of Steinbrenner's sons that they expect the Yankees to win every year. That propels the pressure on players to be stronger, inhumanly strong.

If they are playing against other teams with players taking steroids, I'm sure that the pressure is even greater to take them just to compete. I definitely feel that the owners must have been involved since it was the team trainer who claims that he injected these players with steroids and HGH.

What I am asking also is, how do these players take steroids and still pass the random drug tests? If they are taking them, then the tests must not be so random. Probably with owner complicity, they are tipped off as to when the tests will be given.
I want to give Roger Clemens the benefit of the doubt because he has achieved a remarkable career if it was legitimate. If it is proven that he took them, it will be very heartbreaking for me as a baseball fan.

Hey Blackfrancis, I was a baseball fan since I was 8 when the Mets won the World Series with Tom Seaver! I used to know all the stats and everything. In recent years, I've been less enthusiastic, mainly because of the greed of the owners.

[Fish Hook Girl]

What I am asking also is, how do these players take steroids and still pass the random drug tests? If they are taking them, then the tests must not be so random. Probably with owner complicity, they are tipped off as to when the tests will be given.

The NFL has had steroid testing for far longer than the MBL. And even the minor league baseball teams have had more stringent testing than the major league teams because the players have demanded it. Maybe the testing is rigged. It wouldn't surprise me given the amount of money involved in professional sports. Right now, there's no test for HGH. And some of the more highly paid players are able to buy the newest steroids that MLB isn't even able to test for right now.

Don't fret over Roger. He's still a hall of fame pitcher. I hope he'll be able to clear any black mark away from his name. The Mitchell Report was only a report MLB paid for to make it look like they really care about steroid use in their sport. The main sources are a few snitches with remarkable memories.

[JackT]

The NFL has had steroid testing for far longer than the MBL. And even the minor league baseball teams have had more stringent testing than the major league teams because the players have demanded it. Maybe the testing is rigged. It wouldn't surprise me given the amount of money involved in professional sports. Right now, there's no test for HGH. And some of the more highly paid players are able to buy the newest steroids that MLB isn't even able to test for right now.

Don't fret over Roger. He's still a hall of fame pitcher. I hope he'll be able to clear any black mark away from his name. The Mitchell Report was only a report MLB paid for to make it look like they really care about steroid use in their sport. The main sources are a few snitches with remarkable memories.

If you find the steroids shocking, Moondance, here's another dirty little secret about Clemens: He used to pitch for Boston!!!!! Fortunately, the idiots ran him out of town on a rail.

[moondance]

If you find the steroids shocking, Moondance, here's another dirty little secret about Clemens: He used to pitch for Boston!!!!! Fortunately, the idiots ran him out of town on a rail.

I knew that Mr. J!